Since March, more than 1,200 international students nationwide have discovered that their legal status had been terminated or their student visas had been revoked with little notice — in many cases over years-old traffic or other minor offenses.
In Minnesota, at least three international students have been detained by the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE). Dozens more have had their legal status canceled; in some cases, schools have advised these students to leave the country. Some of these students have since had their legal status reinstated.
In a livestream last week, Sahan Journal brought together two people close to the topic to discuss the crackdown on international students and the legal challenges they face:
- David Wilson, managing attorney at Wilson Law Group, who represents international students impacted by immigration enforcement.
- Hannah Ward, investigative reporter for the Minnesota Daily, who has been covering ICE activities on campus and legal challenges facing international students.
According to Ward and Wilson, many international students, including those with no prior legal issues, report high levels of stress and fear of even attending class. But Ward says some students soldier on, risking potential deportation to complete their studies.
The federal government tracks International students using the Student Exchange Visitor Information System (SEVIS). Under normal circumstances, the program is used to keep tabs on students’ enrollment, address, passport information, which airport they fly out of, and identify where they work. But now, Wilson warns that ICE agents cross-reference SEVIS information with the National Crime Information Center, a general database on criminal records.
A client of Wilson tells him, despite the wishes of her parents, she refuses to back down from deportation threats. This client has chosen to put her faith in the United States court system and argue to legally ensure her education continues.
During the live conversation, Ward informed the live audience that international students often pay more than double in-state tuition. With more than 5,000 students from overseas in Minnesota, a drop in enrollment could lead to program cuts or higher tuition for domestic students.
These are just some highlights of the conversation. Watch a recording of the livestream and read the full, lightly edited transcript below.
Alberto Villafan
And it looks like we’re live. Hello everyone. Thank you for joining us this afternoon. My name is Alberto Villafan. I’m the Digital producer over at Sahan journal, and today we’re going to be talking about the evolving changes to immigration policies that are affecting international students in Minnesota. I’m joined with two fantastic guests who are going to help us better understand just what the heck is that happening right now? And I think I’m going to let them introduce themselves. Hannah. Do you want to go first?
Hannah Ward
Sure, I’d love to. My name is Hannah Ward. I’m an investigative reporter at the Minnesota daily, which is the campus newspaper for the University of Minnesota community. This semester, I’ve spent a lot of time covering recent in.
Immigration news that’s relevant to students and
Alberto Villafan
Minnesota.
Hannah Ward
other other people at the University of Minnesota.
Alberto Villafan
Thank you so much, Hannah. And then over on the other microphone, we have David Wilson. David, you want to say hi to the people?
David Wilson
Hi, I’m David Wilson. I’m a lawyer here in Minneapolis, and I’m fighting a lot of government power and on behalf of students these days,
that’s a short version.
Alberto Villafan
We appreciate you very much. Thank you guys both so much for coming here today. Hope you guys are all very excited to hear what they have to say. We are very happy to have them here. If you do have questions for our guests, please send them into the chat, I’ll be happy to ask them at to our panelists near the end of our interview, it’s going to be taking an hour, so expect that around like 1245
for the past few months, Sahan Jouranl and several other news outlets have reported on several Institute international students having their visas revoked, you know, being detained by ICE at their homes, outside for charges more than half a decade old, right? Things for like protesting, graffiti, DWI, that’s a lot there’s a lot of information. There’s a lot of things going on. So David, Hannah, as simply as possible, if that’s even possible, can you tell me what the heck is happening to international students in Minnesota? Hannah, can I have you go first
Hannah Ward
Sure international students at the University of Minnesota are afraid because the federal government has been revoking visas, which prompts fear on its own, but some of those students who are affected are at the University of Minnesota, so it’s an issue really close to home, so. There’s a lot of lot of concern from the student body and the faculty, and anyone who’s an international international student or scholar,
Alberto Villafan
David, your turn, what are you seeing? What’s what’s going on right now?
David Wilson
Well, I think there’s two versions of it. There’s the first version where the student is, you know, targeted by ice for either a visa revocation, then tied to something else, say, a public safety argument or foreign policy argument, and then you see the paper version or the electronic version, where records that are tied to students called the SEVIS registration are just being turned off because of a random background check match. Some of it seems to be instigated by the Department of State. Maybe it’s ice. They can’t seem to agree on who’s to blame for this.
Alberto Villafan
Real quick. Can you define what SEVIS is? For audience,
David Wilson
Sure, SEVIS is the Student Exchange Visitor Information System. It’s basically a response to 911 so in 2001 it was legislation started rolling out in response to what happened in 911 and a lot of that was a lot of the people involved in 911 had student visas, either F, J or M visas, and they were able to walk away from their programs, and no one was tracking them. As a consequence, Congress responded. They wanted something electronic, and they wanted to be able to find when a student doesn’t show up, doesn’t enroll. This played all out also in the Boston bombing, where CBP had missed that student visas had been they had stopped going to school, and so the SEVIS data wasn’t updating fast enough. And so there was this system really created for monitoring, and it’s so the school is supposed to update changes in the program where the student lives. If they drop out, they fail to enroll, things like that, and ICE is just supposed to track the data so when someone doesn’t show up, they’re alerted, and they can go go looking for the person because they’re worried about the person going off the grid. The system, though now, has been used by ice to look for data about students and then to match it to a general database on criminal records known as the NCIC and that link is what’s causing all the issues, because now ice is reacting to the data and just unilaterally terminating people in the system. The SEVIS registration, though, is kind of the lifeblood of a student status. It allows them to register for class, change your address, maybe go into a graduate program or get practical training authorization down the road. When that, when the school can’t maintain that, then the student is like driving. Off a cliff, the road is gone underneath them, and they’re essentially going to fall down to the bottom, below and be out of status. And that’s where all the, you know, a lot of the paper hubbub is coming from.
Alberto Villafan
Can I ask you, How many students do? Are you aware of how many international students are in Minnesota
David Wilson
That that I don’t know. I there’s, I mean, there’s so many schools that have international students. I mean, you have high schools that have international students. You also have, on top of that, you do have trainees, they’re on j1 visas. Researchers, for example, the University of Minnesota, a lot of them are on j1 visas, not f1 visas. You have m1 visas were vocational trainings. So pilots, for example, pilot schools. We have one in Egan, that’s an m1 program. So those programs, you know, the volume of students, it’s in the 1000s at this point.
Alberto Villafan
And it’s not just university students, like at the at the University of Minnesota, it’s not just undergrads. It’s multiple kinds of schools, not just colleges, right? Oh,
David Wilson
well. We know of Mankato Saint Cloud, Metropolitan State Concordia, University of Minnesota, Augsburg. I know of at least one in Augsburg. I don’t know of any at St Thomas, but there it’s all over this issue, Hannah.
Alberto Villafan
We asked you to talk to some international students, and you’ve definitely spoken to some in some of your previous reporting. Do you think you’re the students that you’ve spoken with? Could echo that road falling underneath them?
Hannah Ward
Yeah, I think, I think absolutely, even for students who haven’t had their their records terminated, it’s I mean, the issue is that so many students don’t know why this is happening. Even the employees at the international students and scholar service at the University of Minnesota don’t know why records were being terminated from SEVIS. So for students who have had past criminal convictions, even if they’re minor, it’s a very fearful time. I haven’t been able to speak with any students who have had their SEVIS records terminated. I’m not sure who they are, where to find them. But I know for all international students that I’ve spoken with, even if they don’t have a any minor criminal, I don’t know offenses in their past, it’s a really scary time.
Alberto Villafan
I’m sorry. So Can, can you repeat that last bit for me, something about minor offenses.
Hannah Ward
Yeah, like. With a lot of students who have had their records terminated, they have had that been explained for having a drunk driving offense or other minor, minor or misdemeanors, I guess is the word I’m looking for.
Alberto Villafan
Real quick to both of you, I’m gonna have to ask you both to speak up where I’m being told that some of our audience is having a hard time hearing you. So I’ll speak a little louder, a little bigger. You need that for me.
David Wilson
Sure I can be really loud, I guess. I mean, I can, I can pinpoint that a little better in the connection is to data. The NCIC system doesn’t get a record that shows up in the FBI system unless it’s an arrest or citation that’s a misdemeanor or higher. So traffic ticket tickets by themselves. Normally wouldn’t do it. The pattern team seems to be person gets stopped has some kind of insurance issue that may be a misdemeanor, no proof of insurance or driving after suspension, or no Minnesota driver’s license, for example. And when that happens, then they’re put in the system because local police records the offense has a case number, and that’s what NCIC is really about. It’s about tracking context with law enforcement. And once that’s there, it doesn’t matter if the case is ultimately dismissed. Prosecution says This is stupid. Get rid of the case if that contact is enough to trigger that that link. And so in some cases, there have been, I mean, I have two where the first contact, the one that’s putting the person in in CIC, is dismissed, the case that goes nowhere. The prosecution realizes it’s a non case. And there are other contacts are literally infractions, ordinance violations for parking. We were talking earlier about having your car towed, that kind of stuff and but that seems to be what sets it off, is that initial contact that’s slightly higher. And doesn’t matter what happens, it’s just the contact that’s causing it. It’s not the conviction.
Alberto Villafan
So if I remember right, I. Some smaller schools like MSU Mankato, they can have a lot of international students, right, right? How? How are these arrests, detainments of international students, maybe rippling towards other students? You know, it? Can you help me understand that? Is it? Because, what are the ripple effects here?
Hannah Ward
If any? Yeah, do you mean for how other students are? How are other students feeling about this? Yeah, I would say there was a lot of like, initial shock and concern when the first student was detained by ICE and since then, there have been a few protests that it broke out, both on campus and with some students showing up in front of the federal courthouse, but it hasn’t been as widespread as some other other issues, or it’s not translating to like mobile mobilizing in the form of protests On campus, just to compare it to last spring, the University of Minnesota saw a lot of protests pro Palestine in the form of like encampments or gatherings on campus, and that saw like turnout of hundreds of students. With this there is a much, much smaller turnout. There’s much less, I want to say motivation to have longer, longer protests. I went to one just recently, and it was over in 30 minutes, because the turnout was maybe 20 or 30 people, most of whom are already involved in activist groups, so it’s not engaging with most of the student body. But I know there is concern. I the impression that I get is most students don’t feel it’s something that protesting on campus can make changes for what’s happening, because it’s the federal, federal government, is how they see it.
David Wilson
Well, the school is a victim in this instance, right? I mean, that’s what’s happening. It’s like, you can’t protest at school. School is not doing it. They’re actually trying to help. Yeah, they also have a mandate. They have to comply with their program, otherwise they can lose their accreditation. So SEVIS is a voluntary program. Schools don’t have to do it, but if they don’t do it, they can’t have international students so, but they also can’t, then really piss off ice and lose all their international students. So it puts them in the, you know, really hard position, argue for one, but lose them all, or kind of be quiet and try to help but do so in the shadows because their hands are somewhat tied that they’re trying to protect their entire student body. It’s a really untenable position for any school administrator to be in, and I can understand why schools wouldn’t want to invite any more investigations into the school. I think the University of Minnesota has six open in federal investigations by this administration. They don’t need a seventh, and they don’t want their students to become the focus of that either. So it puts, you know, so the attention is getting. It’s hard to really for people to grasp what the scale of the of the risk is we’re using a terrorism statute as a foundation for then unplugging legal status.
Alberto Villafan
Thank you, David. Real quick, if you are just now joining us, thank you so much for tuning into our Instagram Live with Sahan Journal. Today we have Hannah Ward, a an investigative reporter with Minnesota daily at the University of Minnesota and David Wilson, an immigration attorney with Wilson Law Group, today we’re going to be answering your questions about international students and their visa statuses, concerns and infractions that are coming against them. David, I guess, like you said, universities are effectively a victim in this situation. They’re trying their best. What are universities trying to do to protect or serve their international students that are coming under attack?
David Wilson
If there’s anything, I mean, they’re they’re being very cooperative in helping us understand what’s happening in the background. We can’t see the data. They can’t they have access to it. So to that extent, they’ve been very willing to communicate regularly about this. Change has happened. This is, and I say change, because it’s not been the same answer or the same approach all along, starting in March, the initial indications were in an entry by an ice officer somewhere saying you had violated this. Students violated their status. They failed to maintain status background checks. A few weeks later, as ice is starting to get called out on this, they switched to other just failure to maintain status background checks and. It’s kind of stepping back each step of the way. DSOs are important. The DSO is the designated school official at each university. That person has been very Can
Alberto Villafan
Can you tell me what DSO stands for?
David Wilson
Oh, designated school official. Okay, so that is basically someone authorized to access the system, because it’s really a government system. At the end of the day, they’ve been very crucial, and they’ve been crucial in giving us updates about changes, and, you know, almost collaborating in terms of saying this, students had this effect when a course made an order, confirming that there’s actually been compliance with that order, things like that. And so the school has been trying to help. They can only go so far, though, at the end of the day, this is the student status. They’re not the ones unplugging it, and so it’s on the student then to decide, do they wish to push back? Do they want to just accept their fate and leave? And some students have chosen to leave. They’ve just said this isn’t worth it, but others have been very vehement, like, no, no, no, I’ve worked too hard. I’m not going to have this pulled out from underneath me for a parking ticket. This is stupid. It is stupid, but it’s just so the schools are I don’t envy school officials in this particular environment, but especially on this issue, because they have to walk a very fine line between maintaining their accreditation and then trying to help the students who have been targeted by a random data match.
Alberto Villafan
Hannah, have you spoken with any students who have felt this type of way, like just, it’s not worth it, just giving up effectively,
Hannah Ward
I would say there are. There’s one student who I know is a graduate student who has to return to his home country to do research, and he is very adamant about not letting this stop him, like he’s he’s still going to leave the country, even if it means he can’t return, even if there’s nothing in his no issues in his criminal history that should prevent him from returning to the United States. So that’s one attitude. I’m saying, is kind of resilience and determination to kind of keep it business as usual. For other students, it’s a lot of preparation, making sure documents are in order, following whatever advice they can get from the University, which is not, not a tremendous amount, because they don’t know why this is happening. So there’s not a lot of questions they can answer for students, besides what they can do to be prepared.
David Wilson
And from the school’s perspective, you have to understand as up to last Friday, there was ice was digging in on what you’re maintaining your status this, there’s nothing to see here. Schools knew better. Lawyers knew better. By Friday, I think ISO starting to accept the Federal Court was picking up on that. Their response was nonsensical. So they had come out and said, All right, we’re going to go back and manually fix all these records. Sometimes Sunday night, they start coming up with a new policy. Don’t, don’t know what we didn’t know what it is, seen it now, all I’ve done is just shift. Who’s the actor, is what they’ve done. And so they’re trying to, you know, instead of putting lipstick on the pig, they’re putting a little rose or something else to make it look little better. It’s not changing what they’re really trying to do. They’re trying to weaponize the ability to revoke a visa and then use that to expedite someone’s departure from the United States, and now they’re linking to Sevas, and that’s where they’ve gone way too far.
Alberto Villafan
So for our audience, this is a little confusing of situation. I was confused, and I’ve been trying my best to keep up to date on what the heck is happening. But on on Friday, April 25 politico, other news outlets, reported that the Trump administration reversed course and reinstated visa registrations for 1000s of international students, right? But on Monday, Sahan reported that a new student visa policy was created. Sunday evening. What David’s talking about? Uh, however, that policy was unclear. According to New York Times, officials at the Department of Homeland Security had not restored any visas that had been revoked. David, if I remember right from from Becky Dern box reporting, even the Trump attorney, or Trump federal Federation, the federal attorney from the Trump administration, was also confused on what the policy was, right?
David Wilson
The attorney speaking for the government, because I don’t want to call him a Trump lawyer. I don’t know that he would want to be called a Trump lawyer. Thank you for the he you know he’s but he’s, candidly, I don’t envy his position right now, because he’s. Trying to catch up with what is actually going on. He’s just at the end of one, one case of many, and he’s not the direct voice to Washington. He’s getting the information through other people, and often he’s he’s literally asking me, Hey, have you I’ve heard of this document? Have you seen it? And I’m sharing it with him because I’ve seen it from other cases around the country, so they’re trying to catch up this new policy, though, we both were in the position yesterday in federal court of having to be canned with the court. We know it’s coming. We know what’s out there, but no one has seen it. We don’t know what impact it has on what we’re doing now. That now it’s another day and it’s leaked out. We’re aware of it, but I think there’s gonna be this constant changing of narrative by the government, which is only then creating more apprehension for students, because they don’t know what is happening today or tomorrow. The newspapers are not entirely correct. The New York Times, for example, you mentioned saying there are no they’re not reinstating visas, but they have some. They have reinstated some, some they can’t, because the visas have expired, you can’t reinstate something that’s expired. But other cases, they have, but selectively, and so in some cases, the data looks like they had restored them back to the beginning the next person down the list, they only did it back to the date of the announcement. So there’s a gap so it’s it’s all over the place. There’s like this known actually owning this and taking control of it.
Alberto Villafan
How does this affect your own work like this? This huge level of confusion.
David Wilson
Well, I haven’t resorted to chronic drinking yet, but I’m feel like I’m getting close. It’s stressful. It’s stressful to try to tell students this is what you can expect tomorrow, because that’s often what as lawyers, we’re really asked to do, is what what are my rights tomorrow in this moment? But how do I live tomorrow? How do I go to class tomorrow and expect that things are going to go back to some kind of normal and just the one we think we know? The answer it changes.
Alberto Villafan
I have a question from the chat, and this is for either of you, whichever of you to feel most comfortable. How risky is it to return to the United States of America if I’m going to visit my family abroad? Many thanks. It’s not an easy question. I know
David Wilson
Well, The problem becomes, are you a permanent resident? Are you a student? That there’s a lot of different standards that apply, I think, as a simple rule, if you’re a student, you’ve ever been pulled over and charged with a misdemeanor for anything, then there’s some risk.
Alberto Villafan
That’s a conflict thought, well,
David Wilson
disconcerting, but it’s at least, you know, right? Because part of it too, is this revocation policy that’s kind of driving this in the background. They they’re invoking of the authority to do silent revocations without telling the student, and so a student may go out thinking their visa still valid, not knowing that the Department of State is quietly terminated it, and they won’t know it until they get back to LAX and CBP won’t let them through, and they detain them, then they’re subject to mandatory custody or withdrawing their application and paying for their return flight right then and there. And so there’s a lot of risk, in that sense, if there has been any significant contact with police, other than, say, a speeding ticket or a parking ticket. So I want you to really check before they get on a plane.
Hannah Ward
I think, just to add really quick, similarly, I would be, I think, for any students who have like content on their like personal electronic devices that could put them at risk that is related to, I don’t any like kind of protest activity I know is a concern or speaking out like especially pro Palestine, has been what drove this? Like, initially, I think, from Marco Rubio.
Alberto Villafan
So the Minnesota Daily reported that the student and student and exchange visa program, the savvy a division of immigration. I’m sorry this question is worded weirdly. The Minnesota Daily reported that semis program has terminated students exchange program. I don’t know who wrote this question, and that’s my bad. Give me two seconds. It’s like weirdly worded. It’s a cliffhanger. It’s a cliffhanger. It’s a great little question. Can’t wait. The Minnesota daily has reported the Student and Exchange Visitor Program. A division of immigration and custom enforcement has terminated students and Exchange Visitor Information Systems records. Hannah, do you have any idea on why the heck this is happening? I’m dyslexic. I don’t know what to read, by the way, that’s my bad.
Hannah Ward
No, I do. Don’t know why this is happening, and neither does the University of Minnesota’s International Student and Scholar Services group that helps international students and scholars. They don’t know why it’s happening. So they don’t know how to help students either. When students ask, What can I do to prevent this, which is an issue. So they’re limited in how they can, how they can help and do their job.
Alberto Villafan
So then what has the university been telling these students, just tossing their hands up, saying, like, best of luck.
Hannah Ward
There has been, I know, they hosted a webinar in mid April, and they have collected some information sheets on here’s what you should do, know your rights with ice, and then you might be able to add on here. But I know there’s some some key, key points that are important, like having your documents organized and keeping your immigration immigration documents on you at all times, having an emergency contact who can access copies of the documents, and then having a number memorized for a lawyer you can call.
David Wilson
I mean, part of it too is the schools have been instructed for years to tell students if your SEVIS accounts terminated, you’ve got to go. You’re no longer maintaining status, so you need to make a decision whether you go voluntarily or wait till the government eventually finds you. So the initial messages were pretty strong from the schools, because that’s what they were programmed to say. They’re trained on how to administer the Sebas program, and that was one of the messages from Homeland Security for the last 15 years. You violate, you go. It’s just that simple. And you know, students were also getting messages at the same time from the Department of State. They’re getting emails and from from wherever got they got their visa. One that always will stand out with from for me is a Chinese student who went to Vancouver to get her to get her visa there, because she don’t always have to go back to your home country. And she got an email after she would have been told by school she’s out, and this email said you’re no longer in status. You’ve been identified for background checks. You need to leave now, because if you don’t leave, we could deport you. We could even deport you to a third country.
Alberto Villafan
Sorry, a third country?
David Wilson
Yeah, the El Salvador threat.
Alberto Villafan
Oh.
David Wilson
Imagine, as a student getting that. Imagine the political nightmare that a sending a student from China to El Salvador would cause. You couldn’t sign a war for that kind of stuff. And they’re sending this out as a automated email. That’s, I mean, that’s as a lawyer. I’m just shocked at the stupidity, the lack of self awareness as a government that we would send that kind of message, that we’re going to treat people that way and threaten them. So students are rightfully pissed and scared, because that kind of rhetoric is not something they would ever expect to get from a US government office. That’s something you get from maybe a Chinese government official, not the other way around. And so I think that has really fueled the climate and also part of the tension with the schools. They became aware of it, saying, Well, wait a minute, there’s no way they’re going to deport you this way, but we can’t really tell you that either, because we’re still programmed to say a certain thing. It’s like going back to what Hannah was saying earlier about the the mindset of students. A lot of students are hiding and they don’t want attention, so you’re not going to be able to get one on the radio, for example, or on a newscast. I’ve been asked numerous times, please give us a client to talk like they do not want to become the poster child for this process and ice and draw ice to their doorstep at 5am No way. That’s the last thing they want.
Alberto Villafan
David, you’re representing. Correct me. If I’m wrong, you’re representing two student clients who had their legal status terminated in recent weeks. Right?
David Wilson
There are two active cases here in Minnesota. I have another one in Madison, and we represented a many other students who are about to file last Friday, but be when we became aware of the new kind of shift in ISIS position, we held off. We wanted to see if I self corrected in those cases, because we didn’t want the the pressure of a court process interfering with with something that ice may have just been fixing on their own, and leaves the students without being identified that way, without becoming targets for ice scrutiny. And the students, obviously, if they, if they could see it fixed without having to go to court, they’d rather just do it that way. So there’s still three, three pending that I represent. There’s another group of five from Concordia, and there’s another one for a couple of people who are detained as well.
Alberto Villafan
And what have you been hearing from your clients? You know? How are they feeling? You expressed that students have a right to be pissed. First are yours.
David Wilson
One in particular, she she’s very articulate, and she at first, her parents were like, we should come home. And she had thought about it for overnight, and she said, No, I because in America, you can go to court and I’m like, that’s the way to live, believe in the systems that make us who we are. Don’t run from them, use them. And so she’s angry, she’s upset. She’s worried about what it’s going to do to her graduate program. She’s got offers from Ivy League schools. She’s incredibly bright, and she doesn’t want to see all this hard work fall apart, but she also doesn’t want the government to just get away with it and force her hand. So there’s this mixed emotions for a lot of students in that way, but there’s some serious trepidation, though, with standing up, it’s hard to be the face of something, especially when you’re fighting something as powerful as the federal government. I
Alberto Villafan
have a question in the chat. Per the Constitution, international students are protected by the First Amendment. Correct me, if I’m wrong here, how does the protection currently play out in the context of the immigration court? You know you meant Hannah, you mentioned that you advise international students to maybe quietly delete anything that could be construed as inflammatory.
Hannah Ward
Well, not necessarily like me personally advising, but I know that that’s a big concern is having any any material on your phone that can get you in trouble, especially if you’re an international student traveling in and out of the country, I would just be Be considerate with what you what you bring with you.
Alberto Villafan
David?
David Wilson
so I think what you’re really seeing in a larger scale is the administration is trying to find any foothold or weapon. I’ll call it weapon within the Immigration Nationality Act that will allow it to control opinions, control people, and decide which who are the desirables and who are not, from their perspective. And there are provisions that are there that haven’t been tested. The one that comes up often is this is foreign policy one. That’s where the freedom of speech, they collide together, where you you have a First Amendment right to speak your mind protest, but at the same time, the administration in the law seems to empower the Department of State to say, well, we revoked your invitation to do so here. And so that’s where that that has never been tested, and this administration’s not shy about testing the law. And so that’s where we find ourselves at this point. Um, and that’s not just on speech. That’s where the DWI issues coming up, gross, massive expansion of what is public safety. Never had public safety raised in this way. Disorderly conduct cases now before the federal court, a simple, you know, tussle with someone somehow, was somehow a public safety concern for all the United States. This is a, you know, massive overreach, a tempted overreach. And so when you have the conflict of speech in the Constitution, coming together with so much authority Congress has given to the Department of State to decide foreign policy initiatives and visa power. I don’t it’s, you know, there’s so much from 911 that we never really thought about what we’re giving to the executive branch. This is one of those. This is from 2004 this has been lurking there, waiting for some executive branch to grab it. It’s like putting a gun on the table and waiting for someone to eventually pick it up. It’s been picked up. The problem is now getting it back in the holster, and that’s where we’re seeing this tension here with freedom speech, the right to be a student, sharing ideas is inherent to being a student, yeah, disagreement, resolving on, finding common ground, all those things, and they’re just trying to kill it. They’re trying to kill it because they want control, right? And this is true of controlling the schools. I mean, this is, you know, the students are kind of pawns in some ways. You think about all that’s going on the schools. And the idea of we’re going to decide what you’re going to teach, what your standards are going to be, we’re going to we want someone that we put in power now, at some point the schools are going to have to come together and say, Enough, is enough public institution or not? Look, you’re this is on, you know, on our ground. This is where we decide, what we decide, hopefully we’re getting there. Seems like we’re getting close, but I think the student visa is in some ways, kind of accelerating the discussion. Hopefully at least
Alberto Villafan
Hannah, real quick, we’re about halfway through our discussion today. If you’re just now joining us, thank you so much. My name is Alberto. We. Sahan journal. We’re here with David Wilson, a managing attorney at Wilson Law Group, and Hannah Ward investigative reporter at the Minnesota daily. Today we’re gonna we’re discussing ice and international students. If you’re looking to learn more about the topic, you can always visit us at Sahan journal.com, and of course, Hannah Ward has written extensively on this topic for the last how long?
Hannah Ward
sometime in March, all the days just kind of blur, blur together.
Alberto Villafan
What was the first story that you had to write about?
Hannah Ward
It was the the first student who was detained by ICE, um, and that was, Oh, yeah. I really, I can’t remember the date for the life of me, but I had learned about it. It was a Friday. The University of Minnesota sent out an alert about it around 5pm and I had been kind of looking into it all day, because one of my roommates is a graduate student, and it had got around, like, through her circles, and she was like, Hey, this is kind of crazy. There’s an international student who’s been detained by ICE I said, Huh? What do you mean? You should be a little more, a little more energy with this. And so I was, I was trying to find out all I could. And since then, it’s just been a series of more and more happening.
Alberto Villafan
Was here a moment that particularly shocked you in some of your recent reporting?
Hannah Ward
I think I it’s, I’ve mentioned it like earlier, but just the fact that the university doesn’t know why this is happening and that students are confused. I think the lack of clear information and sharing, sharing why this is happening, what’s happening is, I mean, concerning to me, like as a journalist like it. I think that should be a priority with all of this, and it’s not.
Alberto Villafan
Oftentimes, journalists are asked to, like, remain objective, keep their your feelings out of this completely. You know, you’re you’re just a witness to what is happening, you know, but you’ve been covering Palestinian protests since last year, you’ve been the dailies like one of the common reporters to talk about international students and their own woes. But how has this been weighing on you? What does it feel like to be reporting on what sometimes feels tragedy after tragedy?
Hannah Ward
That’s a good question. It’s a little bit easier sometimes to tune out my own feelings. Like, I mean, I I enjoy going after a story that’s like important, and knowing that the work that I’m doing is is benefiting people by letting them know what’s going on. I think it gets tough when I really have to take a take a second to sit back and think about the the cost it’s having on the people that I’m writing about. And I have to to make sure that I’m, I’m staying in touch, and I’m not just presenting something,
just just writing about it, because it’s important, but because it’s, it’s someone’s livelihood that’s being affected, and I need to take a Second to have that like register, kind of emotionally.
Alberto Villafan
David, first of all, thank you very much. Hannah, I really appreciate it. David, I’ve got a question from our chat for you. Our chatter would like you to explain the government’s new policy that he just saw, that you’ve apparently just saw today. What is this vague new policy, and does it change anything? And if so, how I’m not sure what this new policy is. Can you give me some context? I
David Wilson
I can try. The new policy seems to be that ice is announcing to all its stakeholders that it’s now declaring that it has the power to revoke or terminate status in SEVIS, once the Department of State has taken any action on a visa, they call either a Prudential revocation or a full revocation. Under the law, there really isn’t a difference. It’s a it’s a pretty it’s dressing up things, but the fact that matter, it’s a revocation. And they’re saying, we don’t need to tell a student, we can just do it. And that is it happens. And when we do that, we will then evaluate whether that person should be put in removal proceedings or not. Uh, maybe we won’t do it, but we’re going to at least have the authority to do this interim step. They’ve just made a policy, essentially reinforcing what they’ve been doing already, which they’ve just declared that they did wrong. So I think what they’re trying to do is walk it back and say, well, we didn’t intend to hit everyone that we did the full database all at once, but we did that doesn’t mean we’re not going to keep trying to perfect it and start targeting people for certain offenses or be crimes or contacts, and then when the Department of State is supposed to be the source of the alert, because they, too can see the same data. The department state also sees SEVIS. It’s all the SEVIS things all intertwined through all the relative immigration agencies. And so if the department state says we see something, you know, we issued a visa 10 years ago, we see a record pop up doing random checks or routine checks. It’s tied to a student Minnesota. Revoke the visa. We revoke the visa. We transmit that to ice. Ice then says, Oh, we still there’s they’re still in school, terminates SEVIS account. Don’t tell anyone. We don’t have to tell anyone. We’re not required to tell anyone.
Alberto Villafan
Why aren’t they required to tell anyone? Like, this is a major shift, right?
David Wilson
No, that’s that’s the problem with SEVIS is that it doesn’t have a notice provision to the student. The DSO is the messenger of the bad news. The question, though, is the DSO doesn’t know what the heck is the message? Because right now, the government can’t decide if terminating SEVIS is actually then causing the student to no longer be a non immigrant student at this point under the law. So they’re saying in some it would call it the Watson affidavit, this trying to swear this narrative that they’ve been trying to maintain that in fact, just us taking, you know, deleting this record doesn’t mean you’re not you’re no longer a student. There’s no explanation how anyone’s supposed to function without this. It’s like taking out your heart. Oh yeah, the body’s still alive for a minute. But eventually it ends well, they’re doing the same thing. They’re just trying to whitewash it at this point, saying we’re only doing it selectively, and so you might be at risk of deportation. That’s worse than what they were saying before.
Alberto Villafan
And then you just have something like hanging open your head because you you won’t
David Wilson
know as a student’s like, Well, I had contact with the police. Now I have to worry about it every second of every day the rest of time I’m in the United States, that can’t be what they’re intending. That’s the tenor of it. I’m sure they’ll say, That’s overreach. That’s not what we really meant to say. But the rhetoric and the tone is pretty strong. So if I were in court today instead of yesterday, and I was had this awareness of it, I would have said this doesn’t change a single thing. This is exactly why we’re here. Because they’re trying to link visa revocations to SEVIS. There is no legal link between them. The SEVIS program was created for a specific purpose. It’s monitoring and then enabling school schools to manage a student’s stay in the United States. That’s all it is. It is not a gateway for creating a condition that forces a person to deport themselves. Fundamentally wrong. But they’re trying to make it one. They’re trying to build a bridge to nowhere. How’s that you? Sarah Palin, for a moment,
Alberto Villafan
bridge to absolutely nowhere. Yeah, it’s not leading anything. Hannah, on Thursday, April 7, I’m looking at some of your articles on april 27 your fellow Minnesota daily reporter, Tyler church covered a rally outside of Northrop Auditorium. Students, faculty, community members protested various issues, including defending students from ice. You know what has been the atmosphere on campus. What was the air there? From what you heard from Tyler,
Hannah Ward
it, I mean, at the protest, there was a lot of energy, I know, because some of the people there were are close friends, people who are who know the student personally, and then a lot of activists who are passionate on campus generally, I think after that, for that student was detained. Since then, it has been, I don’t want to say not a concern, because there have been I’ll say like I one of my majors is geography. I know that’s where one of the students who’s facing issues is in the one of the geography graduate programs. I. Our Department hosted, like a town hall, kind of having a community discussion. So there are events like that. But I wouldn’t say there’s, like a widespread anger or passion for how to how to fight this. It’s been a lot of a lot of, like, earnest conversations. It’s
Alberto Villafan
more just discussing that this is happening and, well, Geez, it’s happening. There’s not much that can be done. Yeah,
Hannah Ward
yeah, a lot of making sure that students, I mean, especially international students, because there are more than 5700 at the the University of Minnesota, making sure they’re informed and making sure that staff members and faculty know how to support them.
Alberto Villafan
Thank you very much, Hannah. If you are just now joining us, we’ve got about 15 minutes left in our hour long conversation with Hannah Ward, an investigative reporter at the University of Minnesota, and David Wilson, a immigration a managing attorney of Wilson Law Group. Today we’re discussing international students visas and ice very delightfully uplifting topic.
David Wilson
What can I add to what you’re saying? I mean, so there’s another dynamic. There is that the a student who isn’t an international student really won’t understand what’s at stake. Mm, hmm, especially if they’re hearing all this discussion about SEVIS and accounts and computers and data matching, it just sounds like a bad tax return. It doesn’t sound like liberty. It doesn’t sound like the capacity to fulfill your passion or finish your degree. And so until they see students who aren’t on campus anymore, it’s not real. It’s not tangible to them. So when someone gets arrested, then they can see it. They can see that’s government police, and that’s very easy to attribute to a certain government action. I think it’s very hard for students to appreciate the scale of which the government has taken action across students across the country in one fall swoop, and just kicked a bunch of people off campus digitally. And so imagine canceling your life digitally when you start talking to students in terms that they understand, iPhones, Android, whatever. Then in having someone click a button and everything you’d worked for stops that should make them mad, because this, if it’s going to happen for that reason, why isn’t it going to happen soon for something they said, and they’re tied to certain programs, and then they can’t participate in that program because there’s government money tied to the program. But you’ve had an opinion we don’t like. It doesn’t hard for it’s not hard to fathom how this unravels and becomes completely untethered from reality, where students are just kicked out of so many opportunities, regardless of whether you’re international or not. This is just kind of the first wave, it seems, in the government trying to assert what will be taught by whom and on what conditions.
Alberto Villafan
So you expect this to get worse as the years go on. I think
David Wilson
that what you’re seeing is that hopefully you’re starting to see the universities start recognizing the importance of the moment and starting to come together and really question, well, what is our role? Do we? We’re going to have to do something. We’re going to have to collectively take the risk of standing back, you know, pushing back. You know, I mean credit to Harvard for putting itself out there. But I think other schools are starting to see, well, wait, if Harvard’s willing to do it, why aren’t we? Hopefully, you know, there are, there’s already litigation by some states and schools challenging these service terminations. It’s been filed in Massachusetts, I think that’s going to grow as the more the administration keeps pushing on students and schools, schools are starting to realize they have to push back, maybe for their own the well being of their students, but maybe for their own survival in the long run.
Alberto Villafan
I’ve got a two pronged question from our chat for you. David, real quick, can you explain what Optional Practical Training is?
David Wilson
It’s this is like a final exam. Um, Optional Practical No, well, I’ve been trying to lately optional, Optional Practical Training, op T. We call it op T is a one year opportunity for when a student finishes their respective programs to go find a job that’s related to their major. So we’re bringing up geography, for example, that person needs to find a job in geography, and the school has the power to authorize it, so students apply to the school official, the DSO. The DSO endorses. An underlying document called an i 20, which, again, it’s kind of like, kind of like a driver’s license for students. And then with that, they get students allowed to get work permission and for a year, and depending on the program, could be longer if the STEM program, they can go get experience in their field of endeavor. So Optional Practical Training is a very powerful benefit of being an international student, which is but this is where SEVIS comes in, and why it’s freaking out so many students, because so many students are on the cusp of qualifying for op T and they’re about to they’re losing it because of the SEVIS action, because without an act of SEVIS, you can’t get it.
Alberto Villafan
So then how should op T, or how should international students on op T react to their statuses being revoked? You know, basically losing this career opportunity.
David Wilson
Well, I mean, that’s where ICE’s position last Friday of stepping in should have restored it for them now? Well, the problem is, it depends on what sense it restored. Is the word I’m choosing to use meaning taking actions that this never happened, because clearly they didn’t intend for this database to go wild like it did. They’re not necessarily doing that consistently. What they’re doing instead is entering a reinstatement, which means there’s a gap. Gaps matter in immigration. You have to maintain continuous status. Gaps can prevent you from then switching off a student visa, onto a work related visa, getting a green card, you know, cutting off pathways, off of being there that are legal pathways. And so if someone’s on op T and they were affected by this at one point, they really need to ask their DSO. I need the notes. I need the entry notes to show. Just understand whether there’s a gap, because there’s a gap, they need to they can’t just ignore it. It’s going to come back to follow them. The problem has been the whoever’s doing the fixing is not consistent. Sometimes there is sometimes there’s not.
Alberto Villafan
Hannah, the University of Minnesota has an International Student and Scholar Services Office, right? You know, these people support international students, the international community. And what advice is, ISS, ISS, yeah, what advice is this Office offering to students at this time? Yeah, I’d say
Hannah Ward
just to restate, like what I mentioned earlier, about having your documents organized beyond just immigration documents, like any legal documents, having them, knowing where they are, making copies, having your immigration documents with you, like on your person, wherever you go, in case you’re you’re picked up by ice on the street, having A a friend or emergency contact who will respond at, I don’t know any, any time of day if you’re in need, who can access copies of those documents if you don’t have them on you, and then to have the number for a lawyer memorized, in case you have to have to make a call. Otherwise, there’s also a student legal service that the University of Minnesota offers, and some students have been consulting with them, taking legal advice. So a lot of a lot of information sharing and then hosting webinars, information sessions, taking student questions.
Alberto Villafan
David, maybe you can offer some advice here in the event that someone is preparing to possibly be detained by ICE where Could someone find a lawyer or any type of legal advice protection?
David Wilson
I think having a game plan beforehand is important, because it’s not as if they give you access to the internet when you’re in custody to search for someone the old, you know, image of the officer hands a stack of yellow page books to our telephone directories from the jail room floor to someone saying, pick your poison and call whoever you want. That doesn’t happen anymore. I think that one thing that students should really keep in mind is, you know, it’s good for someone else to have a good scan of your passport biographic page so we know how to your name is spelled. You know, hyphens, for example, can really make it hard to find someone in the detainee locator system. The correct date of birth, some passports this day first versus month. Seeing the passport helps us really identify, where is that person? Deep just for the fundamental question, where are they? And that’s in this day and age that’s really important, because ice moves people really fast.
Alberto Villafan
Is it easy for them to for you, or people like you to lose clients?
David Wilson
Yes, they can go dark for a little bit when they’re moving them between facilities. Yes, and so you you’re trying to guess where they’re doing now, as someone who’s around the detained court quite a bit, you get wind of that this this particular facility is full. They may be shifting people over here sometimes, like they were initially moving people to Aurora, Colorado, this big detention facility there, we started picking up on the pattern of when they’re going to do it, so we can anticipate it. But otherwise, if, if ice is motivated for a particular person, it doesn’t have to be a student, they’re going to move them quick, because they don’t want a federal court getting their teeth into them.
Alberto Villafan
We’re reaching the end of our broadcast now, and I just want to thank both of you so much for taking the time out of your day to answer a lot of these questions, obviously very confusing and a little dizzying, before we sign off. Is there anything that I didn’t get to ask the two of you? Maybe that you want to throw in any other advice? Anything you got? Anna, would you like to go first? Sure I’d say
Hannah Ward
something to bring up is, I think I mentioned there are more than 5700 international students at the University of Minnesota. I think it’s important to note that they pay $66,000 in tuition a year, which is more than twice as much as a Minnesota resident would pay. So they’re bringing the university a large chunk of money. And obviously, some of them come with financial aid from the university, some with financial aid from their home country, but it’s a big chunk of cash that the university relies on,
David Wilson
and it’s bigger that it’s not just the school, it’s think about all the jobs and the community around the University of Minnesota, how much student housing there is. There is so much money tied into being just students, and a lot of that comes from overseas. Schools. Don’t like to admit it, but they’re subsidized by international students, and so if students from Minnesota don’t want their tuition to go sky high in the next two years, they really need international students to help cost control. It’s an unspoken element of, you know, university level education, but it’s the truth. They subsidize it, then they contribute, but they also subsidize it. And so from that standpoint, I think it’s very important to note this. I mean, the economic toll this could take is significant. We’re talking billions of dollars cumulatively across the country. This is not a small question that we’re dealing with.
Alberto Villafan
So are there other ways that the universities, not just University of Minnesota, but other smaller schools, rely on support from international students?
Hannah Ward
Hannah, I would say one area that I’ve looked at so far is, I mean, this sort of answers your question. But like David said, with subsidizing the amount of administrative staff at universities has grown a lot in the past couple decades, and that’s one area where, like international student enrollment has also grown during that time. And it makes it makes those jobs possible. So even the international students who who take jobs are contributing to the local economy, but also they make jobs within the university possible,
Alberto Villafan
right? I’m trying to think about how many of my TAs were international students, or so on and so forth. Well,
David Wilson
and you must have seen posters for, you know, when you went to college that, hey, you can go to this program abroad. You know, the University of Minnesota has got a relationship with somewhere in Australia. Those are relationships that will be tested, if we’re taking Australian students and then locking them up or, you know, disinviting them as soon as they arrive. And so there’s a lot of interconnectivity in the academic world that you know, we’re a global economy. We’re also a global education system in many respects, and this puts a lot of strain on it. It makes it very hard for American universities, public or private, to really maintain those and keep the our foreign friends who academic institutions feeling comfortable that these relationships are worthwhile, and so there’s just so much that we’re sending so many bad messages out to the world these days. This is just one of the loudest ones, unfortunately. So
Alberto Villafan
it’s going beyond just international students. It’s showing other educational institutions that maybe they shouldn’t be partnering with us, universities, basically, well, it
David Wilson
threatens to do that. I mean, there are already, you know, conversations with school administrators, with children, you know, and parents overseas or contemplating sending their students for the next semester. For the fall, and they’re really second guessing it, because they don’t understand what’s happening. And so the lack of clarity from the government is not helping either in terms of selling the next semester. And so that’s going to manifest, and, you know, it’s going to eventually spread into other relationships, which would, I’m sure would include the ability to partner with schools overseas. You also have to think, then, how are the foreign governments going to react to our students? You know, governments love tit for tat, kind of stuff. You know, what goes around, comes around. And I just think for American students, this also doesn’t help you either, going overseas.
Alberto Villafan
Thank you both so much for your time. I wrote a little intro, and I want to, I want to use it real quick, because I think it’d be cute. Thank you both so much for hopping on today. David Wilson, we had David Wilson, a managing attorney at Wilson Law Group, and Hannah Ward, an investigative reporter at the University of Minnesota newspaper, the Minnesota daily, we’re gonna have a recap article and the video of this conversation available for you all later. I hope you stay up to date on the latest news about immigration and other topics impacting immigrants and communities of color in Minnesota. At San journal.com thank you so much for having for coming on our little show.
David Wilson
Thank you for having us. Thank you. Thank you. Bye.
